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	<title>Comments on: The Anti-Homeschooling Post</title>
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	<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/</link>
	<description>From the Potomac River to the Grand</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 02:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1515</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 05:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1515</guid>
		<description>Derek told me about this post, but I'm just getting around to reading everything.  I have a few thoughts to contribute on the subject, from a public teacher's perspective.  While I don't agree with Derek about everything, I will admit that I am a big fan of public education, in general, although I recognize that our current system has flaws.

1. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for a parent to decide between home school and public school.  Much of that decision must primarily be made according to the schools in your district, your financial status, your confidence in teaching effectively, and even your relationship with your child.  

2. As to the role of a teacher, many people who have commented have assumed that just because a person has an understanding of the subject matter, that he/she will be able to explain that information effectively to another person, or in other words, to teach.  For example, while I am capable of doing long division, I am not sure that I would be able to explain it to a 4th grader very easily.  Also, a teacher (whether a parent or a teacher in a school) should be able to adapt to multiple (and I seriously mean multiple) ways of explaining material in order for students to understand.  
Often, it is difficult to explain something in a way that is different than the way we learned it or the way we understand it.  This is one of the cool things about trained teachers.  They receive specific, extensive training on how to do this.  They learn how to adapt instruction to meet a variety of learners' needs, as well training in how to break apart concepts and explain them in a way that is meaningful to the learner.  While parents can certainly do this, or learn how to do this, I don't think that teachers are given enough credit for this skill.

3. Another skill that trained teachers learn is how to provide meaningful experiences out of the concepts they are trying to teach.  We know that children learn best when they can experience knowledge in a variety of ways- they read about it, they act it out, they create with it, they manipulate things and ideas.  These experiences make the knowledge REAL.  They are what make the concepts stick.  Again, while homeschool parents are very capable of providing these experiences, this, too, can be difficult to understand all of a child's learning modalities without training.  I also recognize that there are plenty of trained teachers that neglect this in their own teaching.  However, there are many more trained teachers who do a great job at this!  

4.  Finally, a little educational psychology as food for thought.  Three of the main camps that describe how students learn are the behaviorists, the cognitivists, and the constructivists.  While I don't believe there is not one correct learning theory, I do believe that they can be combined, and each person brings his/her own viewpoint to the table.

Behaviorists basically view that teachers provide a situation, and the students will respond with a behavior.  The behavior demonstrates the learning.  The emphasis here is on the teacher providing the correct situation to get a response.  This is not my personal favorite, as it seems a little Pavlovian.

Cognitivists encourage critical thinking.  The teacher provides direct knowledge, as well as knowledge in which the students practice solving problems on their own.  The emphasis is more on the individual developing knowledge according to his/her needs and abilities.  

Constructivists believe that students learn best by "constructing" knowledge in a particular context, usually with other learners.  Sometimes children can learn just as much from each other as they can from the teacher.  The role of the teacher is to serve as a facilitator of learning within the social context.  

I, personally, believe in a combination primarily of cognitivism and constructivism.  Thus, I am a believer in public education (in theory) because I believe that in addition to helping children become critical thinkers, they must do so in the context of the world around them.  

One more thing... as a product of, and a producer of, public education, I have felt at times limited by the system of public education, in which teachers are left with their hands tied by the bureaucracy of system that "knows more than they do."  I have also, at times, felt unable to express my faith to children because of the consequences that could occur if someone took offense.  Sad, but true.  I have also had the great honor of teaching many children, and seen the joys and successes that are achieved in public schools every day (please give public schools a little more credit for all that they do!).  While there is no right or wrong answer to this situation, I do appreciate this discussion because I believe that both sides have a lot to learn from each other.  

Ug.  My brain hurts.  There are many more thoughts, but I'm tired.  I would love to hear your thoughts about my comments!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek told me about this post, but I&#8217;m just getting around to reading everything.  I have a few thoughts to contribute on the subject, from a public teacher&#8217;s perspective.  While I don&#8217;t agree with Derek about everything, I will admit that I am a big fan of public education, in general, although I recognize that our current system has flaws.</p>
<p>1. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for a parent to decide between home school and public school.  Much of that decision must primarily be made according to the schools in your district, your financial status, your confidence in teaching effectively, and even your relationship with your child.  </p>
<p>2. As to the role of a teacher, many people who have commented have assumed that just because a person has an understanding of the subject matter, that he/she will be able to explain that information effectively to another person, or in other words, to teach.  For example, while I am capable of doing long division, I am not sure that I would be able to explain it to a 4th grader very easily.  Also, a teacher (whether a parent or a teacher in a school) should be able to adapt to multiple (and I seriously mean multiple) ways of explaining material in order for students to understand.<br />
Often, it is difficult to explain something in a way that is different than the way we learned it or the way we understand it.  This is one of the cool things about trained teachers.  They receive specific, extensive training on how to do this.  They learn how to adapt instruction to meet a variety of learners&#8217; needs, as well training in how to break apart concepts and explain them in a way that is meaningful to the learner.  While parents can certainly do this, or learn how to do this, I don&#8217;t think that teachers are given enough credit for this skill.</p>
<p>3. Another skill that trained teachers learn is how to provide meaningful experiences out of the concepts they are trying to teach.  We know that children learn best when they can experience knowledge in a variety of ways- they read about it, they act it out, they create with it, they manipulate things and ideas.  These experiences make the knowledge REAL.  They are what make the concepts stick.  Again, while homeschool parents are very capable of providing these experiences, this, too, can be difficult to understand all of a child&#8217;s learning modalities without training.  I also recognize that there are plenty of trained teachers that neglect this in their own teaching.  However, there are many more trained teachers who do a great job at this!  </p>
<p>4.  Finally, a little educational psychology as food for thought.  Three of the main camps that describe how students learn are the behaviorists, the cognitivists, and the constructivists.  While I don&#8217;t believe there is not one correct learning theory, I do believe that they can be combined, and each person brings his/her own viewpoint to the table.</p>
<p>Behaviorists basically view that teachers provide a situation, and the students will respond with a behavior.  The behavior demonstrates the learning.  The emphasis here is on the teacher providing the correct situation to get a response.  This is not my personal favorite, as it seems a little Pavlovian.</p>
<p>Cognitivists encourage critical thinking.  The teacher provides direct knowledge, as well as knowledge in which the students practice solving problems on their own.  The emphasis is more on the individual developing knowledge according to his/her needs and abilities.  </p>
<p>Constructivists believe that students learn best by &#8220;constructing&#8221; knowledge in a particular context, usually with other learners.  Sometimes children can learn just as much from each other as they can from the teacher.  The role of the teacher is to serve as a facilitator of learning within the social context.  </p>
<p>I, personally, believe in a combination primarily of cognitivism and constructivism.  Thus, I am a believer in public education (in theory) because I believe that in addition to helping children become critical thinkers, they must do so in the context of the world around them.  </p>
<p>One more thing&#8230; as a product of, and a producer of, public education, I have felt at times limited by the system of public education, in which teachers are left with their hands tied by the bureaucracy of system that &#8220;knows more than they do.&#8221;  I have also, at times, felt unable to express my faith to children because of the consequences that could occur if someone took offense.  Sad, but true.  I have also had the great honor of teaching many children, and seen the joys and successes that are achieved in public schools every day (please give public schools a little more credit for all that they do!).  While there is no right or wrong answer to this situation, I do appreciate this discussion because I believe that both sides have a lot to learn from each other.  </p>
<p>Ug.  My brain hurts.  There are many more thoughts, but I&#8217;m tired.  I would love to hear your thoughts about my comments!</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1483</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1483</guid>
		<description>So some of your comments have made me think more about the fine line between what is our role as parents.  God has given some of us the gift of children and has also laid down commandments as to our responsibilities towards them.  I think some of that affects how we view whose responsibility it is to educate them, etc.  So you got me thinking but I'm not very intellectual so I probably won't conclude anything in the near future.  It's up to each family really.

But as far as examples you asked for on Brian's blog I have one for you.

My family - 
My parents decided they wanted to put us in Christian schools while we were little for various reasons - I think mainly because of the importance of the early formative years with relation to our faith and godly examples.  Nothing to do with evolution, etc.  Their plan was to transfer us to public school when we were highschool age (I probably would have done middle school but I wasn't the parent).  So my sister was enrolled in public highschool.  Her 1st year she received a 4.0 without studying and was not academically challenged.  In fact she knew more German that her German teacher.  So rather than have her get behind (the school had a long history of being horrible academically) academically they enrolled her in the private highschool.  They were not impressed with the schools Christian education but it was ranked 1 of the top 10 schools in the midwest.  This was the days before you could enroll your child in a school outside your neighborhood.  My sister then went on to a public university and spent 9 years ministering to the poor in the inner city of Pittsburgh.  

That same highschool has now started a montessori program for kids who are above their classmates.  So in order to keep them challenged academically they are removed from the general public anyways and put on their own educational track.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So some of your comments have made me think more about the fine line between what is our role as parents.  God has given some of us the gift of children and has also laid down commandments as to our responsibilities towards them.  I think some of that affects how we view whose responsibility it is to educate them, etc.  So you got me thinking but I&#8217;m not very intellectual so I probably won&#8217;t conclude anything in the near future.  It&#8217;s up to each family really.</p>
<p>But as far as examples you asked for on Brian&#8217;s blog I have one for you.</p>
<p>My family -<br />
My parents decided they wanted to put us in Christian schools while we were little for various reasons - I think mainly because of the importance of the early formative years with relation to our faith and godly examples.  Nothing to do with evolution, etc.  Their plan was to transfer us to public school when we were highschool age (I probably would have done middle school but I wasn&#8217;t the parent).  So my sister was enrolled in public highschool.  Her 1st year she received a 4.0 without studying and was not academically challenged.  In fact she knew more German that her German teacher.  So rather than have her get behind (the school had a long history of being horrible academically) academically they enrolled her in the private highschool.  They were not impressed with the schools Christian education but it was ranked 1 of the top 10 schools in the midwest.  This was the days before you could enroll your child in a school outside your neighborhood.  My sister then went on to a public university and spent 9 years ministering to the poor in the inner city of Pittsburgh.  </p>
<p>That same highschool has now started a montessori program for kids who are above their classmates.  So in order to keep them challenged academically they are removed from the general public anyways and put on their own educational track.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1482</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1482</guid>
		<description>Derek,
Do you have any examples of schools that have that kind of flexibility?  I've certainly never seen one and only seen quite the opposite.  I'm not going to let my children's education and self-worth suffer just waiting for schools to adjust to kids who need different paces.

Alex is getting in to stuff gotta go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek,<br />
Do you have any examples of schools that have that kind of flexibility?  I&#8217;ve certainly never seen one and only seen quite the opposite.  I&#8217;m not going to let my children&#8217;s education and self-worth suffer just waiting for schools to adjust to kids who need different paces.</p>
<p>Alex is getting in to stuff gotta go.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1480</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1480</guid>
		<description>Derek, thanks for your response to my response.  You definitely have some very good points.  I'm not sure if I'll have time to respond, but it was fun to make a foray into the fray.  Much love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, thanks for your response to my response.  You definitely have some very good points.  I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;ll have time to respond, but it was fun to make a foray into the fray.  Much love.</p>
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		<title>By: David Altenburg</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1476</link>
		<dc:creator>David Altenburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1476</guid>
		<description>I feel I should clarify one thing. My last comment certainly reveals my generally negative opinions to public schools. That said, I have nothing but respect and gratitude for those who make it their work to teach in them. Julie, along with several of my other teacher friends, are doing noble, important work - the real fault in the state of public schools, as far as I can tell, is in the failure of communities to support schools, financially and otherwise. 

Some of the most talented, intelligent people I know are school teachers - people who could easily be making fortunes in finance, IT, or other fields, but who have chosen something more significant.

I also suspect that the model of teaching used in schools is really out-of-line with what we know about learning now, but I'm sure your wife knows much more than myself about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel I should clarify one thing. My last comment certainly reveals my generally negative opinions to public schools. That said, I have nothing but respect and gratitude for those who make it their work to teach in them. Julie, along with several of my other teacher friends, are doing noble, important work - the real fault in the state of public schools, as far as I can tell, is in the failure of communities to support schools, financially and otherwise. </p>
<p>Some of the most talented, intelligent people I know are school teachers - people who could easily be making fortunes in finance, IT, or other fields, but who have chosen something more significant.</p>
<p>I also suspect that the model of teaching used in schools is really out-of-line with what we know about learning now, but I&#8217;m sure your wife knows much more than myself about that.</p>
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		<title>By: David Altenburg</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1475</link>
		<dc:creator>David Altenburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1475</guid>
		<description>Derek, 

You raise some good points that really challenge my point-of-view on this matter. Thanks for writing them.

&lt;I&gt;Technology and human collective knowledge have progressed to the point where we must depend on others to help us out.  This includes teaching.  I can choose not to depend on the city to provide my water, but my quality of life will be significantly lower, if not outright unhealthy.   I can choose to try and teach my son Geometry, but in reality, I will fail and end up telling him to read the book.&lt;/I&gt;

I don't think this assertion is true. The math teacher at the local high school may know more geometry than me, but that's not a fair comparison. Remember that the local high school teacher has a lot more to deal with than teaching one student geometry. The real comparison is - can a math teacher teach geometry as well to my children, given that my children may make up 3% of the classroom, and much of the teacher's classroom attention must be focused on discipline? 

Remember, the stuff taught in primary and secondary school is general knowledge. I would expect anyone with a college degree from a good school in a rigorous major to be able to understand all of a high school curriculum with a small amount of review. Unless my high school was an exception (and I've seen plenty of evidence that it is not), the actual material that's taught over 4 years is very, very little. In fact, little of the classroom time was even spent on teaching the material. I assert that I could teach my children more in 30 minutes than they would learn in an hour of public school. If that means I need to spend the other 30 minutes brushing up on the material for my own benefit, so be it.

Your post in general assumes that the point of public schools is primarily to educate our children. I'm not sure sure that's the case. The argument otherwise would be too long to get into here, but I don't think that should be taken as a given.

Finally, the crux of your argument - our responsibility to society - is a sobering one. I agree with you there. I do think that it may be possible to homeschool a child who will do more for society than if he or she spent their most intellectually fertile years stuck in the C&#38;C bureaucracies that are most public schools, but that's a very complex issue, and you're right that we do have a responsibility to our community, and that's something we should consider - the idea that we get a free pass on the responsibility when it comes to "our children" is poisonous and absurd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, </p>
<p>You raise some good points that really challenge my point-of-view on this matter. Thanks for writing them.</p>
<p><i>Technology and human collective knowledge have progressed to the point where we must depend on others to help us out.  This includes teaching.  I can choose not to depend on the city to provide my water, but my quality of life will be significantly lower, if not outright unhealthy.   I can choose to try and teach my son Geometry, but in reality, I will fail and end up telling him to read the book.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this assertion is true. The math teacher at the local high school may know more geometry than me, but that&#8217;s not a fair comparison. Remember that the local high school teacher has a lot more to deal with than teaching one student geometry. The real comparison is - can a math teacher teach geometry as well to my children, given that my children may make up 3% of the classroom, and much of the teacher&#8217;s classroom attention must be focused on discipline? </p>
<p>Remember, the stuff taught in primary and secondary school is general knowledge. I would expect anyone with a college degree from a good school in a rigorous major to be able to understand all of a high school curriculum with a small amount of review. Unless my high school was an exception (and I&#8217;ve seen plenty of evidence that it is not), the actual material that&#8217;s taught over 4 years is very, very little. In fact, little of the classroom time was even spent on teaching the material. I assert that I could teach my children more in 30 minutes than they would learn in an hour of public school. If that means I need to spend the other 30 minutes brushing up on the material for my own benefit, so be it.</p>
<p>Your post in general assumes that the point of public schools is primarily to educate our children. I&#8217;m not sure sure that&#8217;s the case. The argument otherwise would be too long to get into here, but I don&#8217;t think that should be taken as a given.</p>
<p>Finally, the crux of your argument - our responsibility to society - is a sobering one. I agree with you there. I do think that it may be possible to homeschool a child who will do more for society than if he or she spent their most intellectually fertile years stuck in the C&amp;C bureaucracies that are most public schools, but that&#8217;s a very complex issue, and you&#8217;re right that we do have a responsibility to our community, and that&#8217;s something we should consider - the idea that we get a free pass on the responsibility when it comes to &#8220;our children&#8221; is poisonous and absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: dkastner</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1473</link>
		<dc:creator>dkastner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 02:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1473</guid>
		<description>Sarah, thanks for your response!

&lt;em&gt;What about the parents who want to home school their children/put them in private school for the primary years? Many do this because children learn at different paces.&lt;/em&gt;...&lt;em&gt;What about the child who developmentally isn’t able to read well until 3rd grade but after succeed academically? &lt;/em&gt;

I would say that perhaps there's more room in the public education system to accommodate different paces of learning.  I would rather see a more flexible public system than it splinter into homeschooling.

&lt;em&gt;Or some feel that it’s a crucial age for having godly mentors and when they are a little older they are ready to enter the public ’sector’ to work out their faith/be a witness.&lt;/em&gt;

This seems to be the strongest argument for Christian parents.  However, if 95% of Christian children are home schooled, where does that leave the 5% of Christian children who want to have good Christian friends in public schools?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah, thanks for your response!</p>
<p><em>What about the parents who want to home school their children/put them in private school for the primary years? Many do this because children learn at different paces.</em>&#8230;<em>What about the child who developmentally isn’t able to read well until 3rd grade but after succeed academically? </em></p>
<p>I would say that perhaps there&#8217;s more room in the public education system to accommodate different paces of learning.  I would rather see a more flexible public system than it splinter into homeschooling.</p>
<p><em>Or some feel that it’s a crucial age for having godly mentors and when they are a little older they are ready to enter the public ’sector’ to work out their faith/be a witness.</em></p>
<p>This seems to be the strongest argument for Christian parents.  However, if 95% of Christian children are home schooled, where does that leave the 5% of Christian children who want to have good Christian friends in public schools?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1472</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1472</guid>
		<description>Derek,

I enjoy a good debate too, so see our blog for my rebuttal, which I hope you will take in the same spirit you intend yours.

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek,</p>
<p>I enjoy a good debate too, so see our blog for my rebuttal, which I hope you will take in the same spirit you intend yours.</p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://dkastner.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/the-anti-homeschooling-post/#comment-1471</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dkastner.wordpress.com/?p=467#comment-1471</guid>
		<description>I agree with what you say about community involvement being the way to improve things.  But I also disagree with a lot of what you say because I think your statement is too bold, too narrow minded. You are only looking at the polar opposites.  What about the parents who want to home school their children/put them in private school for the primary years?  Many do this because children learn at different paces.  Or some feel that it's a crucial age for having godly mentors and when they are a little older they are ready to enter the public 'sector' to work out their faith/be a witness.  What about the child who developmentally isn't able to read well until 3rd grade but after succeed academically?  They spend several years in school feeling dumb, which often has a lasting effect, when they could have been taught at home at their own pace and when ready gone to school.  

I'm not saying that homeschooling is the right/best option and I do think there needs to be better parameters on it.  There are parents &#38; curriculum's that can educate children better than your local public school but there are also parents who shouldn't homeschool and the kids suffer.

To use your quote:
"Do we hide in our homeschools or do we try to help steer society toward what is good?"  

I don't think this is an either or situation, yes many do view it that way but isn't there also the ability to better prepare our children at young ages to go out and 'steer society' when a parent feels their feet are a little less shaky or are developmentally ready to run alongside their peers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what you say about community involvement being the way to improve things.  But I also disagree with a lot of what you say because I think your statement is too bold, too narrow minded. You are only looking at the polar opposites.  What about the parents who want to home school their children/put them in private school for the primary years?  Many do this because children learn at different paces.  Or some feel that it&#8217;s a crucial age for having godly mentors and when they are a little older they are ready to enter the public &#8217;sector&#8217; to work out their faith/be a witness.  What about the child who developmentally isn&#8217;t able to read well until 3rd grade but after succeed academically?  They spend several years in school feeling dumb, which often has a lasting effect, when they could have been taught at home at their own pace and when ready gone to school.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that homeschooling is the right/best option and I do think there needs to be better parameters on it.  There are parents &amp; curriculum&#8217;s that can educate children better than your local public school but there are also parents who shouldn&#8217;t homeschool and the kids suffer.</p>
<p>To use your quote:<br />
&#8220;Do we hide in our homeschools or do we try to help steer society toward what is good?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this is an either or situation, yes many do view it that way but isn&#8217;t there also the ability to better prepare our children at young ages to go out and &#8217;steer society&#8217; when a parent feels their feet are a little less shaky or are developmentally ready to run alongside their peers.</p>
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